A rush of concern for manners and decorum from people who were apparently fine with Mitt Romney's lies and rudeness to the moderator in the first Presidential debate.
I don't know, irony doesn't seem like a strong enough word here.
Well, not often I get the first word, but thought I'd throw my two cents in...and no name calling.
No sense talking about substance/who lied/suspected moderator bias....we're all just going to go in circles on that end. But the one observation I had while watching the debate is that I felt like Ryan tried to answer the questions asked, whereas Biden came off as waiting to fire off his rebuttals and try to frame the Romney/Ryan positions himself. I am not trying to say all Biden did was attack and all Ryan did was recite the facts.... am talking more about style and demeanor. Biden's impatience with the chuckling/laughing and the constant interrupting came off as him not wanting to hear Ryan's answer but rather to tell the viewer what the "real" Romney position is. The problem with that is people responded to Romney's performance in the first debate...he went in to greater detail than most people who have not been paying attention to the campaign probably have heard from him since he started running. He was giving voters a reason to look at changing horses this time around. Biden did not get too into details of what Obama second term agenda would be....it was more trying to say "you don't want what this guy is offering". But probably the biggest problem I think is the reaction after...what the media and blogosphere are talking about....and it's all about Joe and his antics. Apparently ratings way down for this debate...so most people who say the First Obama/Romney debate but did not watch this one are hearing again about the strange performance from the Obama side. I understand the need for Biden to be more aggressive...especially to reenergize his base...I just think he went way too far...any points he was trying to score are getting lost in the discussion of his behavior. And his answers on Libya did not help...but not sure the Administration can give a good answer on their response to the Libya attack. It's sad that the only person the U.S. has arrested in this incident is the guy who made the movie that had nothing to do anything with the attack in the first place. All those people who threw the fascist label at Bush/Cheney ought to take a close look at that arrest....
first off.... is Chardonny, or whatever.... is that a Ale or a Lager? And frankly, having a fly in it would just make it a meal with your drink, right?
but but but Jonah..... Joe was correct.... Ryan flipped so much, someone has to tag him for it. He flopped on his abortion stand, he again would not mention....what DEDUCTIONs and LOOPHOLEs they would close.... would not articulate. And.... basically accused the Obama Administration of doing what the Republicans have..."When you have no record, attack the other candidate." So... a one term Governor who could not get re-elected in his own State....and a B team Congressman from Wisconsin.... have a better record cleaning up the collective debt Bush borrowed to fund his wars? ah, but we all know that we just have to defund PBS and everything will be ok. Defund Planned Parenthood and we will restore ethos to the nation.....??? and the little twit said that he agrees with the Afgan timeline....but it is wrong anyways. sheesh...it's friday and I need a beer (or two)
Jimm - Paul Ryan was definitely out of his depth on foreign policy, but I guess it's hard to be clear when you clearly want to take us into yet another war in the Middle East, but you don't want to tell anybody that's what you plan to do.
Well again, no point to me in arguing right/wrong, truth/lie, etc. We're just going to not agree on the substantive points. My point was on style, that Biden went too far...I just think it turns off the people who are undecided, looking to the debates to get a feel for the candidates. Pres. Obama runs the same risk tomorrow night...he needs to be more aggressive (or at the very least, look like he actually wants to be there) but needs to avoid to be just attacking all the time. As much as you all criticize Romney for a lack of details, I haven't heard much from the Administration on just what their agenda is for a second term other than get the economy moving...I hear a lot of why they don't think Romney's plan will work, but are not giving me any reason to believe that 4 more years of what they've been doing is suddenly going to start working now. As for who has a better record to clean up debt piled up by Bush? Not sure I'd go with the guy who increased it in four years by more than Bush did in his full eight years ($6 trillion vs. $4.9 trillion) when he said he would halve it.
Oh and one more thing....I keep hearing about "Bush's wars"...would those be the same two wars that a majority of Democrats in the Senate, including VP Biden, voted for?
This sounds like the current spin is that Mr. Obama is too far above the fray and Mr. Biden is too deep into it. Perhaps for the next Presidential debate, Mr. Cleese can be Mr. Obama's surrogate and zombie Reagan can be Mr. Romney's.
I just looked at the time line of Facebook comments again. The dude who called my link to Politicsusa couldn't even have read it before he dismissed it. At least when my acquaintances and friends on the right send me links, I read them before allowing my full opinion on those articles or charts or whatever to form.
I expect too much from people, which is why I've pretty much given up on trying to have intelligent conversations about politics.
Speaking of which - hi, Jonah. You make some interesting points, but I'm confident that until Gov. Romney and Rep. Ryan are willing to be more forthcoming with how they'll reform the tax system, they're not going to get off that hook of demands for more info.
Good lord, I hope not, Jonah. Remember, while I'm glad to see some reform in our health insurance system, I'm hardly thrilled with the final bill that passed.
Well, not often I get the first word, but thought I'd throw my two cents in...and no name calling.
ReplyDeleteNo sense talking about substance/who lied/suspected moderator bias....we're all just going to go in circles on that end. But the one observation I had while watching the debate is that I felt like Ryan tried to answer the questions asked, whereas Biden came off as waiting to fire off his rebuttals and try to frame the Romney/Ryan positions himself. I am not trying to say all Biden did was attack and all Ryan did was recite the facts.... am talking more about style and demeanor. Biden's impatience with the chuckling/laughing and the constant interrupting came off as him not wanting to hear Ryan's answer but rather to tell the viewer what the "real" Romney position is. The problem with that is people responded to Romney's performance in the first debate...he went in to greater detail than most people who have not been paying attention to the campaign probably have heard from him since he started running. He was giving voters a reason to look at changing horses this time around. Biden did not get too into details of what Obama second term agenda would be....it was more trying to say "you don't want what this guy is offering". But probably the biggest problem I think is the reaction after...what the media and blogosphere are talking about....and it's all about Joe and his antics. Apparently ratings way down for this debate...so most people who say the First Obama/Romney debate but did not watch this one are hearing again about the strange performance from the Obama side.
I understand the need for Biden to be more aggressive...especially to reenergize his base...I just think he went way too far...any points he was trying to score are getting lost in the discussion of his behavior. And his answers on Libya did not help...but not sure the Administration can give a good answer on their response to the Libya attack. It's sad that the only person the U.S. has arrested in this incident is the guy who made the movie that had nothing to do anything with the attack in the first place. All those people who threw the fascist label at Bush/Cheney ought to take a close look at that arrest....
first off.... is Chardonny, or whatever.... is that a Ale or a Lager? And frankly, having a fly in it would just make it a meal with your drink, right?
Deletebut but but Jonah..... Joe was correct.... Ryan flipped so much, someone has to tag him for it. He flopped on his abortion stand, he again would not mention....what DEDUCTIONs and LOOPHOLEs they would close.... would not articulate. And.... basically accused the Obama Administration of doing what the Republicans have..."When you have no record, attack the other candidate." So... a one term Governor who could not get re-elected in his own State....and a B team Congressman from Wisconsin.... have a better record cleaning up the collective debt Bush borrowed to fund his wars? ah, but we all know that we just have to defund PBS and everything will be ok. Defund Planned Parenthood and we will restore ethos to the nation.....??? and the little twit said that he agrees with the Afgan timeline....but it is wrong anyways. sheesh...it's friday and I need a beer (or two)
Jimm - Paul Ryan was definitely out of his depth on foreign policy, but I guess it's hard to be clear when you clearly want to take us into yet another war in the Middle East, but you don't want to tell anybody that's what you plan to do.
DeleteWell again, no point to me in arguing right/wrong, truth/lie, etc. We're just going to not agree on the substantive points. My point was on style, that Biden went too far...I just think it turns off the people who are undecided, looking to the debates to get a feel for the candidates. Pres. Obama runs the same risk tomorrow night...he needs to be more aggressive (or at the very least, look like he actually wants to be there) but needs to avoid to be just attacking all the time. As much as you all criticize Romney for a lack of details, I haven't heard much from the Administration on just what their agenda is for a second term other than get the economy moving...I hear a lot of why they don't think Romney's plan will work, but are not giving me any reason to believe that 4 more years of what they've been doing is suddenly going to start working now.
DeleteAs for who has a better record to clean up debt piled up by Bush? Not sure I'd go with the guy who increased it in four years by more than Bush did in his full eight years ($6 trillion vs. $4.9 trillion) when he said he would halve it.
Oh and one more thing....I keep hearing about "Bush's wars"...would those be the same two wars that a majority of Democrats in the Senate, including VP Biden, voted for?
DeleteThis sounds like the current spin is that Mr. Obama is too far above the fray and Mr. Biden is too deep into it. Perhaps for the next Presidential debate, Mr. Cleese can be Mr. Obama's surrogate and zombie Reagan can be Mr. Romney's.
ReplyDeleteI need a vacation.
I like your ideas of Cleese and zombine Ronnie, D.
DeleteSeems to me that no matter what the Democrat candidates
ReplyDeletedo they get attacked by the right for doing it wrong in any case. Too weak, too strong? WTF?
I agree with you, Lib. And funny how the alleged liberal media is so willing to pick up the Republican framing of that.
DeleteI just looked at the time line of Facebook comments again. The dude who called my link to Politicsusa couldn't even have read it before he dismissed it. At least when my acquaintances and friends on the right send me links, I read them before allowing my full opinion on those articles or charts or whatever to form.
ReplyDeleteI expect too much from people, which is why I've pretty much given up on trying to have intelligent conversations about politics.
Speaking of which - hi, Jonah. You make some interesting points, but I'm confident that until Gov. Romney and Rep. Ryan are willing to be more forthcoming with how they'll reform the tax system, they're not going to get off that hook of demands for more info.
I see...so then Nancy Pelosi's rule that "we have to pass the bill to know what's in it" only applies to Democratic priorities?
ReplyDeleteGood lord, I hope not, Jonah. Remember, while I'm glad to see some reform in our health insurance system, I'm hardly thrilled with the final bill that passed.
DeleteThis is less like a black fly in their chardonnay and more like a cockroach in their Ripple.
ReplyDeleteAnd pardon my French, but FUCK STYLE. These lying bastards need us to point a finger in their faces and laugh 'till we wet our pants.
Seriously!